This is an interview by Vittorio LoConte

Most of people know Jan Garbarek as the leader among the Norvegian sax player you are probably the only one in your country who choose to follow the free movement.

Within what I am doing, more or less so, yes.

Could you tell us about your origin as a musician?

When I was about 9, in 1957, my father bought me and my sister a second hand gramophone with lots of 78's and 2 EPs from The Benny Goodman Story.I immediately got attracted to the sound and what I felt was the freedom of the way these musicians played their music. Teddy Wilson, Gene Krupa, Harry James and Lionel Hampton became names of a music which was very different to the music I normally came in contact with. I guess Louis Armstrong was the only other name I knew at that point.

I got to know Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster and a few other names and I kept listening to the radio on a more or less regular basis. One name I do remember, is Eric Dolphy, because of his incredible flute playing. He sounded like a bird to me and I was very, very impressed how he could make those sounds fit in with the music he was playing. Rock music, Elvis etc., never really touched me. I felt it was inferior to the sounds of jazz.

Around -64, I got into the British thing with the Beatles for a very short time. I moved very quickly to the Stones, the Animals etc. and then into the blues: Howlin' Wolf, Bo Diddeley, Muddy Waters etc. I built myself an electric guitar and even played a bit of that music with friends.

In those years Ornette Coleman played at the "Golden circle" in Stockholm, that made quite a strong impression among listeners and critic. Was that music interesting for you , did you think that could be a path to follow?

Yes, early in -66, I saw a TV program where a person was playing sax and violin with an intensity I had never ever experienced before. It was Ornette Coleman. Probably at the time of the Golden Circle recordings. His conviction and intensity was amazing and far above anything I had heard up until then. Later that year I started picking up Down Beat. The first issue I got, had Albert Ayler on the cover. His interview left me with many question marks. I did not know who he was or what he talked about, but there was something there that made me want to listen to the man. I read everything I could get my hands on about jazz. And spent all my money on LPs from Leadbelly to Monk.

Had you a group of your own in those years?

I had been playing trumpet and cornet for some years in a school-band. At that time,I started playing trumpet with a R&B band. I was really into Miles Davis, Cannonball and John Coltrane. But when In a silent Way came out, I got the blues band that I was playing with, to move into those sounds. We played dances for young people and one tune lasted for a whole set, being totally improvised. In our case, that meant playing for an hour around one chord or on blues-changes.

Those were the years of the "New Thing", did you listen to Shepp, Taylor, Ayler ?

Early in -68 I got to hear Conquistador by Cecil Taylor. I immediately loved Jimmy Lyons as well as the trumpet of Bill Dixon. A little later that year, I read a review in Down Beat of Albert Aylers "Live in Greenwich Village" and for some mysterious reason, I found the LP in the shop within a week! That was it. I was totally blown out. How could he allow himself to play like that? I really wanted to get a tenor sax to get that sound and intensity.

Did you start playing tenor sax just because you had listened to A. Ayler?

The sax player in our blues band had to quit and the other guys told me to either quit or to get myself a saxophone which I did. It was a great moment in my life!

When did you get in touch with Europen players? Some players in France, England,Holland, Germany had already taken up the free music.

Up until -68 there were only American musicians for me. I had been reading the Melody Maker on and off for a while, when I noticed a name which popped up every now and then: John Stevens. I read an interview with him and he immediately struck me as a man who had lots of opinions and creative ideas. A little later, Bobby Bradford was interviewed, and he was playing with the Spontaneous Music Ensemble. He also seamed to me to be a special man for some reason.

Did you think to move to USA to play?

Not really. I moved to Sweden in -71 to study economics and I met people there who was much more informed than me. Art Ensemble, Leroy Jenkins, Gil Evans, Hendrix, Sonny Sharrock, Chick Corea, Keith Jarrett , Jack deJohnette, Wayne Shorter, Paul Bley. But other names started to appear: Peter Brˆtzmann, Keith Tippett, Elton Dean and Soft Machine, Albert Mangelsdorf, John Tchicai, Jan Garbarek, the South Africans, Louis Moholo, Johnny Dyani.

And Miles Davis? It was his electric period.

I also listened to Miles and in fact saw twice in concert. Once with Gary Bartz and Keith Jarrett and once with the "Aghartha" band, with Dave Liebman instead of Sonny Fortune. I loved Miles's bands.

Then you went back to Norway and decided to play your own music.

Moving back to Norway in -75, I started playing with a quartet which became quite popular, locally. We played a bit like Jarrett's band with Motian and Redman. Gradually, we moved further "out" and we lost our audiences! We just did not think about it. We were quite obsessed with the idea of total improvisation.

In 1978, I went to the Moers festival in Germany. There I saw all the people I had only heard on records before: the best Americans, Germans, British and Dutch players. I even think italian Trovesi was there. That trip lasted a long time in my head. For me, it was a question of energy, freedom and sounds. I just could not understand that there were hardly anyone in Norway who would absorb and play that music. It was so strong.

In -81 a very close friend died from cancer. During his illness, I did not feel like playing. And after his death, I went on a long journey to the south of Europe. While on my way back, I stayed some days in Switzerland. One evening I took my horn out, and went up on a hill. It was covered with very high trees with leaves, making it almost like a cathedral. I started playing and after a little time I realised there were lots of birds singing when I was playing. So I started playing with them and I felt we communicated! I felt really good and I realised how much I enjoyed playing this way. I was like being reborn. So I asked myself: isn't it important to enjoy what you are doing? And if you enjoy what you do, presumably you will do it much better. And if you like what you are doing you will do it with conviction. And then the audience ,hopefully, will appreciate an honest performance. Things like that. So I said to myself: why bother with the latest trends in jazz? Enjoy yourself !!!!!!! Do what you like to do. The first thing I did when I got home was to record a solo-cassette!

At this time you had not still played with John Stevens and his SME or with Johnny Dyani. Could you tell us more about this experience with them?

In the fall of 1981, I had a gig with a pianist, Eivin One Pedersen, but no drummer. So I said to myself, why not try just for once to play with a real drummer. And I thought about John Stevens whom I had met briefly in London two years earlier while visiting the city. I called him up and he came over. We played one open rehearsal and a consert.

And that was it. I felt so free and got so much energy from playing with John. It was difficult to come down after the gig was over. He suggested we should get Johnny Dyani, his favourite bass player, to play bass with us as a quartet. We did our first tour with Johnny as Detail in March -82 and we played the Molde festival that summer. Later that year, our pianist quit and we continued as a trio up until Johnny died in -86. Just before his death, we did a tour of Britain with Bobby Bradford.

In the spring '84 the italian Brass group contacted us for a festival in Sicily, but unfortunately nothing came out of that, the contact just stopped .

After we did the tour in England, both my tenor and my mouthpiece was stolen. After that, I never could find the sound I used to have. I was quite fed up with my new tenor and started playing on an old Martin alto sax I had found. All of a sudden, it was easier for me to relate to that sound than to the tenor.

We also extended the trio on several occasions with ad hoc combinations including Paul Rutherford,tb , Barry Guy, bass, Dudu Pukwana, alto sax, Evan Parker, tenor sax, Harry Beckett, trpt , etc.

So through John, I met a lot of very fine musicians. He also gave me insight into his rhythmic world. And generally, we became very close friends. It was not however, until - 93, I think, that I was invited to play with his Spontaneous Music Ensemble, a very special unit. And one of my earliest favourites in free music.

After Dyani died, we got Kent Carter on bass. He lived in France and had played with Steve Lacy for a long time. Before that with Paul Bley etc. and was a very accepted jazz musician with a liking for free musics.

During the later years, we played with Billy Bang and again a couple of tours with Bobby Bradford who loves Kents playing a lot.

I think that the music we played in Detail was too much jazz for the improv people and too free for the jazz people. So we fell between two chairs. I still feel that this is a good music to play. I love relating the music to rhythms somehow. I feel the music moves better. Sometimes, when I play a-rhythmic, I feel it becomes difficult to get involved. I like it when the music is hot. When you feel like you are in a church and the spirit hits you. Like talking in tounges. Being in trance. Orgasmic.

I do not see this music as being intellectual. I feel strongly it is the opposite. At least for me. It's highly emotional. Spiritual. It's all about feelings and emotions.

When John died in -94, I lost a very good friend and adviser. We made 7 records with Detail.

I decided not to have a group anymore. Only projects.

Over these last years you have played and recorded also with piano player Borah Bergmann , is it for you a step forward compared to the music with John Stevens?

Borah has been very encouraging to me and inspired me to practice a lot. I had met him right before John died in -94 and I went to see him in New York in-95. We played a bit and he encouraged me to find new people to play with. So in early -96 Borah, Evan Parker and I did a trio-tour of Norway. Borah and I played with Peter Brˆtzmann as a trio during the Molde festival later that summer.

All of a sudden, I was playing with lots of new people. I realised that having a close friend whom you always could trust and play with, is very good. But it also limits the possibilities. So, in the end, his death was the ending of one thing and the beginning of other opportunities.

What is the future of this music?

I do not know. But I think that as long as people would play the music with conviction and honesty, there will be a development. Younger people are being attracted to the music. Both as an audience as well as playing. They play it in a different way. Some of it, I like, some of it I do not like. I think one of the best things about this music, is that there never has been any big money involved in it. And there are hardly any stars. Maybe a couple. So it is the people who love doing it, who do it.

The situation in Norway, is and has been for a long time, that there is one major person which is Jan Garbarek. As we are such a small country,there seams to be little room for more than one trend. I feel though, that the picture is slowly changing, but up until now, most musicians try to copy his music in a more or less sucesssful way.

Over the last few years I have met some younger musicians who want to move into free music. But very often, it is the rubato, dreamy kind of free music they go for. But again, that's what I call the “ECM school”.

You have had your own group with Norvegian players, "Circulatione Totale Orchestra". With them you made a different music than with Borah Bergman or the one you played with John Stevens. Was it for you another way to approach music, anyway not from the free or experimental side ?

I have had a bigger group since 1985 , the Circulasione Totale Orchestra, mostly playing more electric music, like the Prime Time world of Ornette Colemans. We have been quite successful with younger audiences. And in 1989 I presented an edition which was 3 horns, three basses, three drummers, accordion, guitar, a rapper and a scratcher (DJ).

We did "live hip-hop" music with a rapper who was into doing "free-style". For me, that was just like free music. It worked out very well. Unfortunately, I turned down an offer from the state radio to do a live recording. I thought it was going to be a disaster, because the rehearsals were terrible. But it turned out fine. Maybe I lost my golden opportunity??? At that time live bands with rappers and DJs were not very common.

That band was invented to present my compositions as well as being a place for my to play with local musicians on a more regular basis. The music had rock- and polyrhythms, so it has been relatively easy to find young people with an interest in experimenting.

After ten years of work with this group I decided to end it. In 1998 I changed my mind again (!) and put together a new Circulasione Totale Orchestra for a recording which came out on Cadence Jazz Records. For the first time, I used acoustic basses and we were able to improvise the whole album allthough I did some conducting and on-the-spot-arrangements during the recording session.

And in 1999 I have put together an all-Norwegian trio....

What kind of music do you make with this trio? Is it related to the Ciculasione Totale orchestra or you are going to explore new ways for you music?

Ideally, I would like to do more work with CTO, but we are at least 7 people and financially, that is a disaster! So I would like to make that trio my main band. We have practised a lot and I think we can reach some new territory by working steady together. We use my compositions when we practise, but when we play, we play free. Sometime, we touch the compositions. They are always there to be used spontaneously and is also a way to sculpture the sound of the group. The drummer and bassist are young with lots of positive energy. They also play in the CTO. That way I feel in touch with the bigger group and we can bring in more people if there is a chance now and then, still maintaining the sound.

Right now at the time of this interview, I want to expand the trio to do a quartet with the two drummers playing in the CTO. And do a recording with that unit.

I love playing with two drummers. It leaves you free to play with both, with one or with none and it is a nice, strong physical sound.

My work with foreign musicians will probably continue to be on a project basis.

Over all the years with Stevens you played only in Europe,now you play with people from USA, with Borah Bergman, Wilber Morris, Pheeroan akLaff, Bobby Bradford, Rashid Bakr, William Parker and Hamid Drake, Do you think your music is different when you play with American players?

In jazz, there is always this thing about the Americans who know the jazz music and it's history while the Europeans don't. I do not see the same thing in our music because the jazz influence varies a lot from person to person. And you can even play this music without any jazz background. As long as you know your horn. In fact, I think some of the most interesting players, for me, come from Europe. But I also like playing with Americans because they play in a different way, so they make me sound different. I think your cultural background is important. You should be proud if it. But it's hard to see what it is, sometimes.

Have you ever felt alone with the music you wanted to play in your country? After all it was with Stevens that you really could play what you had inside.

I guess I have been quite a bit of a loner in this country because there really was not anyone interested in playing the music that I wanted to play. In the beginning, I asked people in Oslo, but they did not want to play with me. So when I met John Stevens, I just did not bother asking them anymore. This is the reason why I did not play with any Norwegian musicians for a long time until I started the CTO. And then I choose to use mostly very young people with mostly rock background, from my home town.

Also the fact that I only during certain periods, have been a full time musician, sets me apart from some of the others. That has never bothered me because I have played more and done more things than many of the so-called pros. They have to play in theatres etc. which I also did for awhile, but after this thing in Switzerland in -81. I did not feel like playing theatre and rock and that sort of thing anymore because it took energy away from me instead of giving me energy. So I went back to teaching instead. When I met John, he felt just like me. And he was also teaching, feeling it gave him a freedom within the music.

What do you teach? It has not to do with music I think .

These days I teach 3 days a week so I have the possibility to play 4 days a week without interfering with my school-work. I am teaching social science. And when I have musicians visiting me, I try to arrange a concert at our school. And Evan Parker, Borah, Brøtzmann, Stevens etc. have all been there. So my students (16 to 19) are getting quite used to me and my music. They don¥t feel offended by the music, but they tell me what they like and dislike. So it is a nice feed-back. Also, my headmaster is a very positive person who allows me to take time off when I need to.

I must admit however, that I really would like to play more. And I am trying to cut down as much as I can on the teaching to be able to consentrate on the music.

All over Europe there were and still are festivals dedicated to more experimental music, how long had you to wait until you could hear something like Willisau or Moers Festivals in Scandinavia?

This music has never been very big in Scandinavia. For some reason we went for the ECM-reality....

In -95, Hasse Poulsen invited free improvisers from the Nordic countries to Copenhagen for 3 days. It was the first Scandinavian Free Improvisation Festival. In 1997 there was a new festival in Oslo. We were trying to build a community of the improvisers to set up gigs etc. But since the Oslo-event, nothing has happened.

In Italy we say better later than never, has your work as musician also been appreciated by critics and press ?

I have seen a couple of nice reviews in Italian magazines, but I never played there.

Early in 1997 I received a grant and was voted "Jazz Musician of the Year" in Norway. I felt that was a nice way to say the music is finally being accepted here as well. As part of this thing, I got to play a very successfull tour of Scandinavia with William Parker and Hamid Drake. "Remember to Forget " was a live recording from that tour, released in -98. And "Ultima", another live recording from the same tour, will be released on Cadence soon.

Has this trio with Drake and Parker something to do with your "Detail" group with Stevens?

This trio is for me the present day "Detail". A more mature version of that group. All the experience I got from playing with Stevens, Dyani and Carter is now beeing recycled. And I have developed my playing quite a bit over the last few years so my expression is much stronger.

But this is also only a part of your collaborations and musical interest at the present time...

Yes, just before I did that tour with Hamid and William, I was in New York, playing with Borah Bergman, Bobby Bradford again and Pheeroan AkLaff. We did a record for Cadence. Bobby and I also recorded one for CIMP and I did a live recording at the Knitting Factory with Rashid Bakr and Wilber Morris. This will be a CD on the Impetus label soon.

Last year I did some duo-conserts with Peter Brøtzmann and again this year.We have just got a CD out on Cadence, "Invisible Touch".

I also did a solo CD “ISM” last year. And I have just finnished a duo-CD with percussionist Steve Hubback.

In January next year, I will be touring North-America with William Parker and Hamid Drake and in March, William and I will do some duo-conserts here. And there is a quartet-CD with Louis Moholo comming out soon in London on a new label.

Will you pick up some other horn, playing in the future ?

I have just started on the bassclarinet again. I had one but it was stolen. I love the sound and hope to be using it in the future. But it+s hard work getting a good sound out of it!